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    View Poll Results: Did you like this review?
    Yes 17 85.00%
    It was alright 1 5.00%
    No 2 10.00%
    Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

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      #1  
    Old 06-15-01, 09:55 PM
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    Default Emperor: Battle For Dune

    Post your comments, questions, and suggestions on the Emperor: Battle For Dune review.

    Link: http://www.systemlogic.net/reviews/...rts/emperordune
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      #2  
    Old 06-16-01, 08:19 PM
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    heh...look on the first page of the instruction book on the left side, the 8th gray line down tells you how to select units of a specific type, you click on the unit then press T once to select all on the screen and twice to select all on the map...i went through the same thing though double click on units to try to select them all since that's how every other rts game i've ever played has been but i finally broke down and read the book...good job on the review anyways
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      #3  
    Old 06-18-01, 03:34 AM
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    Laughing

    Father of RTS? hardly...

    This is C&C with 3D graphics and more of the same old crappy and sad cutscenes that make my ESC button wear out.

    I think its about time Westwood start doing something else than rehashing the EXACT same playability over and over and over and over, but calling it different names.

    It doesn't matter if its C&C, Red Alert, or emperor. They all play 100% the same so theres nothing new in there at all.

    New units? well whoppedy doo. New units that fundementally do the same as the units in previous games, only they look different.. GASP..

    I'm shocked that anyone actually gives this game a higher score than 5. It is not graphically impressive, it has annoying sounds up the yazoo, and its the same old stuff as we played last time. You would have to be either a DIE HARD westwood fanatic, or a gimp with no long term memory (since we played Dune 2, C&C, Red Alert, C&C 2, Red Alert 2 and god knows how many different versions of the same game) to enjoy this.

    Its like watching the same episode of star trek with different actors each time. oh wait.. thats not far from what Star Trek is.. my my..
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      #4  
    Old 06-18-01, 05:24 AM
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by Unregistered
    heh...look on the first page of the instruction book on the left side, the 8th gray line down tells you how to select units of a specific type, you click on the unit then press T once to select all on the screen and twice to select all on the map...i went through the same thing though double click on units to try to select them all since that's how every other rts game i've ever played has been but i finally broke down and read the book...good job on the review anyways
    Interesting that you'd say this, because I figured there WOULD be something in the manual, and I combed through it a second time last night and didn't see anything. In particular, somewhere around page 16, I was reading the paragraph about group-selecting units and whatnot...and there wasn't a mention of anything there! Even so, this particular method of doing it is rather...um...obscure. :-)

    Thanks for the feedback.
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      #5  
    Old 06-18-01, 05:38 AM
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by Unregistered
    Father of RTS? hardly...
    No, really. Dune II is widely considered to be one of the founding members of the genre, up there with Populous and X-Com. And I gave my abridged history lesson in RTSes before this. Did I miss something? And I'm not including any of those hardcore military strategy games...we're really talking mainstream here.
    Quote:
    This is C&C with 3D graphics and more of the same old crappy and sad cutscenes that make my ESC button wear out.
    I thought the cutscenes were actually pretty good. Better than I was used to, as a matter of fact. Take a look at Starcraft. How many of those cutscenes told you anything at all about the game? Two or three, perhaps. Most of them are basically just filler intending to give you some eye candy and motivate you to keep playing.
    Quote:
    I think its about time Westwood start doing something else than rehashing the EXACT same playability over and over and over and over, but calling it different names.

    It doesn't matter if its C&C, Red Alert, or emperor. They all play 100% the same so theres nothing new in there at all.
    Nah, this does play different. I've played most of the C&C line, and admittedly, I never really cared for the series as a whole. It didn't seem like it was very well done as an RTS. Warcraft II and Starcraft were much easier to manage, in a tactical sense. I always felt that the C&C games were riding on the coattails of the wild popularity of Dune II, and that's why there wasn't really much innovation since C&C and Red Alert. Red Alert 2 is quite a bit better, but I wasn't crazy about Tiberium Sun at all.
    Quote:
    New units? well whoppedy doo. New units that fundementally do the same as the units in previous games, only they look different.. GASP..
    Well, I didn't notice any real similarites. Then again, I didn't play through the C&C games the whole way through.
    Quote:
    I'm shocked that anyone actually gives this game a higher score than 5. It is not graphically impressive, it has annoying sounds up the yazoo, and its the same old stuff as we played last time. You would have to be either a DIE HARD westwood fanatic, or a gimp with no long term memory (since we played Dune 2, C&C, Red Alert, C&C 2, Red Alert 2 and god knows how many different versions of the same game) to enjoy this.

    Its like watching the same episode of star trek with different actors each time. oh wait.. thats not far from what Star Trek is.. my my..
    Actually, at first, the graphics seemed a little odd, but now that I've settled into it a bit, I find it to be really good. And while it plays/looks best on good hardware, I managed to play it fine on a laptop with a Savage IX chipset, for cryin' out loud, so that speaks volumes about the 3D engine not being some trumped-up resource hog like quite a few we see these days. Interestingly enough, if you've played them enough to know them in and out like this, but you say that each one of those games were really this bad, then why are you torturing yourself by playing the next one when you're so dead-set against them being any good? Go find something else to play.
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      #6  
    Old 06-18-01, 09:17 AM
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    Good reply. i'm the "anti-westwood" guy from above... or so to speak.

    No seriously, Dune II and C&C are amongs my all time favorite games. As is Warcraft and Starcraft.

    Westwood games have always had a hard time ballancing multiplayer games. In Red Alert for instance, you could use the soviet planes in flocks of 6 and nothing could beat it. Two squadrons of these and you could wipe the enemy out before he could say Cat in a Hat.

    The cutscenes in Emperor try to make the game feel like you are part of the story, but to me it just feels like an extreme case of bad acting, ugly backgrounds, and bad compositing, topped of with guys talking to a camera I have no control of. That puts me as FAR away from being drawn into the story as possible.

    The cutscenes in Starcraft, while fewer (thank god) were only there to give you a feel for how redundant your troops really were. Give you a small taste of the atmosphere. The story telling was told in a more believable manner, through the little monitors. You actually felt like you were communicating with someone through long range transmitions.. Like you were on the planet surface. Not flying back and forth constantly to have a 3 minute chat with some guy in a bad costume. To me those little cutscenes did a nice job without going completely overboard in its nonsense like Westwood are so keen on doing.

    In emperor, the units have different names, but they are the same. That silly light vehicle that looks like a saw blade, is essensially just a normal hover bike. You can drive people over with both, so having one look like a saw is pointless at best, and help me god.. what is with that flyer that has flapping wings!?!? Someone needs to have a nother crack at Design 101!

    Gameplay wise, Emperor is 100% the same as Dune II, its 100% as every other westwood RTS out yet. Different names for units, slightly different functionality for each. But nothing new, nothing inovative, and nothing to warrant a buyer forking out another forty odd bucks for.

    Personally I would prefer that westwood stopped being a wannabe hollywood b-movie studio and a support group for burnt out actors, and spend the money they use on the cutscenes on actually making something NEW. I'd like to see these once giants of the RTS world up the level abit. Not bring yesterday's 3d graphics into a 8 year old game formula that hasn't changed a bit. The word HASBEEN always springs to mind when I hear the word WestWood.

    Their menu and building systems are far inferiour to that of say Warcraft and Starcraft, and the resource management thing is getting tedious. Build a house (spice mill), look at the pretty car drive around aimlessly gathering spice. But wait.. they added a flying vehicle that picks it up and fly's it home.. So if you shoot the flyer, it takes longer to get resources.. oh goody, that will add alot wont it! This whole resource gathering idea needs a rework. Not just in westwood games, but in all the RTS games.

    I'm just sick and tired of companies giving us the same stuff over and over and asking for money in return.
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      #7  
    Old 06-18-01, 09:53 AM
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    Quote:
    Originally posted by Unregistered
    Good reply. i'm the "anti-westwood" guy from above... or so to speak.
    Well, since you came back here to read my reply and give me some more excellent feedback, why don't you take a moment and join our community? I'm all in favor of having other peoples' opinions to share on the board!
    Quote:
    No seriously, Dune II and C&C are amongs my all time favorite games. As is Warcraft and Starcraft.

    Westwood games have always had a hard time ballancing multiplayer games. In Red Alert for instance, you could use the soviet planes in flocks of 6 and nothing could beat it. Two squadrons of these and you could wipe the enemy out before he could say Cat in a Hat.
    Swarming the enemy with countless units is a problem in every RTS. Blizzard's hoping to resolve this by downplaying the "power overwhelming" concept in Warcraft III. In several battles while using the Ordos I tried the strategy of just flooding the enemy with Sand Raiders. The main problem was that they just don't fire fast enough and they only move fast until they get shot. The only units I could really storm the gates with were the Laser Tanks, and that was only because they typically had enough firepower to hit all their attackers before the next defensive wave rolled in. Essentially, though, a diverse combination of units, along with some tactics, was generally required.
    Quote:
    The cutscenes in Emperor try to make the game feel like you are part of the story, but to me it just feels like an extreme case of bad acting, ugly backgrounds, and bad compositing, topped of with guys talking to a camera I have no control of. That puts me as FAR away from being drawn into the story as possible.
    You thought the backgrounds were ugly? I was actually impressed because they did a really good job of mirroring content from the movie. The harvesters, carry-alls, and space freighters all bear a really GOOD resemblance to the props used in the movie. I found this to make the atmosphere better, actually.
    Quote:
    The cutscenes in Starcraft, while fewer (thank god) were only there to give you a feel for how redundant your troops really were. Give you a small taste of the atmosphere. The story telling was told in a more believable manner, through the little monitors. You actually felt like you were communicating with someone through long range transmitions.. Like you were on the planet surface. Not flying back and forth constantly to have a 3 minute chat with some guy in a bad costume. To me those little cutscenes did a nice job without going completely overboard in its nonsense like Westwood are so keen on doing.
    In Emperor, the mentats occasionally convey more information during the battle. There's not really a good opportunity for conversation here, however, since Westwood RTSes, unlike Blizzard RTSes, don't use hero units that are differentiated from the regular units. Again, this is more of an aesthetic difference. I liked the way Blizzard did it in-game, but the pre-mission briefings were not much different from the Emperor cutscenes, except in presentation.
    Quote:
    In emperor, the units have different names, but they are the same. That silly light vehicle that looks like a saw blade, is essensially just a normal hover bike. You can drive people over with both, so having one look like a saw is pointless at best,
    This originated with Dune II, of course, but you know that already. Personally, I thought it really fit the tone of the Harkonnens, having a big sawblade to cut soldiers apart. You don't have to actually run them over, of course. You can just turn a Buzzsaw while a soldier as standing adjacent, so it kinda works that way.
    Quote:
    and help me god.. what is with that flyer that has flapping wings!?!?
    It's an ornithopter, a staple of the Atreides military forces that originated in the books. It's called an ornithopter because it flaps its wings like a bird, order ornithicus (I think).
    Quote:
    Someone needs to have a nother crack at Design 101!

    Gameplay wise, Emperor is 100% the same as Dune II, its 100% as every other westwood RTS out yet. Different names for units, slightly different functionality for each. But nothing new, nothing inovative, and nothing to warrant a buyer forking out another forty odd bucks for.

    Personally I would prefer that westwood stopped being a wannabe hollywood b-movie studio and a support group for burnt out actors, and spend the money they use on the cutscenes on actually making something NEW. I'd like to see these once giants of the RTS world up the level abit. Not bring yesterday's 3d graphics into a 8 year old game formula that hasn't changed a bit. The word HASBEEN always springs to mind when I hear the word WestWood.

    Their menu and building systems are far inferiour to that of say Warcraft and Starcraft, and the resource management thing is getting tedious. Build a house (spice mill), look at the pretty car drive around aimlessly gathering spice. But wait.. they added a flying vehicle that picks it up and fly's it home.. So if you shoot the flyer, it takes longer to get resources.. oh goody, that will add alot wont it! This whole resource gathering idea needs a rework. Not just in westwood games, but in all the RTS games.

    I'm just sick and tired of companies giving us the same stuff over and over and asking for money in return.
    Sounds like you're disgruntled with the industry in general, and not just Westwood. I think you ought to take a look at this comic series over at Penny Arcade. It ran for four days, so make sure you read them all.

    A lot of people today are disgruntled because there's not a lot of room left to innovate. You can only increase resolution so much before there's no point...You can only increase color depth so much before there's no point...You can only create so much before it starts blending in with everything else. The arts in general are starting to become faced with this crisis because there's little out there to inspire any new creation that hasn't already been done. Of course, this has been said before, and we've been proven wrong this far, right?
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      #8  
    Old 06-20-01, 07:02 AM
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    Angry Westwood still in the early 90's ??

    This review was not what I expected. A review should be a review not bragging about and a opinion that everyone can have . I want to know about real game play . How it compares to other brand rts games . Like Total annihilation . Now that was a real game . It had many units and maps . Controls were very good . Music went with the game . I dislike how Westwood is trapped in the early 90's . Everytime i play redalert or redalert 2 it reminds me of warcraft . Thats not a good thing . I hate how were limited to a construction yard . Have to build so close . Limited number of units with now way of 3rd party units . The game gets boring . Unlike Total annihilation i never tire of . In fact me and my friends played it last weekened . I think westwood should really change the way the game plays instead of saying it will . Get a new designer Westwood for you games . I dont want to play your game and throw the game away after a month . Total annihilation still looks better then your game so i would take notes from Cavedog !!
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      #9  
    Old 06-20-01, 10:49 AM
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    Default Re: Westwood still in the early 90's ??

    Quote:
    Originally posted by k4h-Scorpion
    This review was not what I expected. A review should be a review not bragging about and a opinion that everyone can have . I want to know about real game play . How it compares to other brand rts games . Like Total annihilation . Now that was a real game . It had many units and maps . Controls were very good . Music went with the game . I dislike how Westwood is trapped in the early 90's . Everytime i play redalert or redalert 2 it reminds me of warcraft . Thats not a good thing . I hate how were limited to a construction yard . Have to build so close . Limited number of units with now way of 3rd party units . The game gets boring . Unlike Total annihilation i never tire of . In fact me and my friends played it last weekened . I think westwood should really change the way the game plays instead of saying it will . Get a new designer Westwood for you games . I dont want to play your game and throw the game away after a month . Total annihilation still looks better then your game so i would take notes from Cavedog !!

    It may be granted that Emperor has similar game mechanics to other RTSes, but its understandable considering that there's only so much creativity that can be had before it gets exhausted.

    Yeah, you are stuck building within range of your other buildings, but since the buildings have to run on some form of electric power, they have to be close enough to the windtraps or another building connected to the windtraps, so it makes sense.

    Maps? There are over 30 regions on Arrakis to fight over, several of which you'll most likely visit multiple times. Furthermore, there are several plot battles which take place on Caladan, Draconis IV, and Geidi Prime, adding extra maps there. Also, there are additional missions dealing with CHOAM and Imperial affairs. All told, the game has over 40 maps, which is more than any of the mainstream RTSes before it, save Total Annihilation.

    Total Annihilation did make a great idea with the wide array of units, as well as downloadable ones, but honestly. How many units can you create before they're just rehashes of the old ones? Magic: The Gathering suffers from this in a BIG way...with all the expansions and additions to the series, how many cards do you have that are truly unique? Not many...they may have different names, but they have the same strenght/cost/features as some other card that's been done before.

    The big innovation I liked in this game was the campaign structure...I mean, how many games end when you lose a battle? Almost all of them! But in this game, if you lose a battle, it doesn't mean that you lose the war. Furthermore, it affects parameters in future missions too. Add in the participation of the minor houses and their involvement in the plot, and things get more complex. When you play a Blizzard RTS, how much time do you spend analyzing the coming battle before you're actually in it? None...because you don't exactly CHOOSE anything about it. In Emperor, you can pick entry paths as well as your competition. You don't have to take over all the territories to win...If you just invade and fight like crazy and totally ignore the other houses, you can win in less than 15 battles. If you don't blaze through the game, then you can take the time to get deeper plot development and more units. You can manage your victories with stronger tactics, and pick your fights wisely. This was a really big innovation in my book.

    Total Annihilation isn't the greatest RTS, though. Total Annihilation is about just that. The game doesn't really have any strategy concepts to learn/master, other than building up a massive army. The game doesn't really focus on strategic management as much as it focuses on "building lots of cheap units to send in". Hence the name "Total Annihilation". It's not so much about thinking as much as it's about lots of stuff getting blown up...so I don't think it's really fair to compare it Emperor. I'm not saying that TA is bad. It's just not the same *style* of gameplay as Emperor. TA focuses more on the action side of the genre than the strategy side.

    As far as replayability goes, Westwood isn't as well known as Blizzard is for this. There are LOTS of fan maps and missions on Battle.net right now. One of my favorites is (Name escapes me for the moment) the one where you get several Zerglings automatically generated every few seconds, and the gameplay is basically just an adaptation of "King of the Hill". Simple, but fun. Starcraft hasn't gotten boring, and it came out in 1998! I expect similar trends to happen with Emperor.

    Good comments, though. Thanks for the feedback.
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      #10  
    Old 06-20-01, 01:06 PM
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    Angry Reveiwer should try using different keys in game.

    Before the reveiwer decides to copmpletely trash the game because he can't figure out that you CAN infact select all units of a specific type (hint to reveiwer: use the letter "t") and before he says the game is set before the movie, and the book, he should listen to the intro a bit more carefully (movie and book set in 10 191, Emperor set in 10192), and another thing, the spice was not known as melange, and the melange was not known as spice, the item is known as the spice melange, and no derivative thereof. - Just a note as to why i posted this... . I am a dune lover to the core, played all the games to completion, own the VHS, DVD, TV series, and all 6 books, so when someone comes along and says something bad about Dune, i feel obligated to speak up.
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      #11  
    Old 06-20-01, 03:06 PM
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    Laughing Re: Reveiwer should try using different keys in game.

    Quote:
    Originally posted by Blyzzard
    Before the reveiwer decides to copmpletely trash the game because he can't figure out that you CAN infact select all units of a specific type (hint to reveiwer: use the letter "t")
    Well, it certainly wasn't very intuitive to me, and I had looked at the instructions twice before I figured this out.
    Quote:
    and before he says the game is set before the movie, and the book, he should listen to the intro a bit more carefully (movie and book set in 10 191, Emperor set in 10192),
    If I am incorrect on this, then it is simply a matter of redistribution of erroneous material. The press material and documents that accompanied my copy of the game *specifically and explicitly* said that both Dune II and Emperor precede the movie by 200 years. In fact, I just checked up on this, and according to the Westwood Official Emperor FAQ, the game indeed takes place 200 years before the events in the movie. The dating presented in the game is wrong, though, as is the dating in the information on the website apparently, so you're correct on a technicality. The intent of the game was for it to be set prior to the events in Dune. I mean, come on...if this was one year after Dune, what happened to Paul? And how did the emperor get replaced so quickly if Paul was to be in charge? And the new Duke of the Atreides? That doesn't make sense at all.
    Quote:
    and another thing, the spice was not known as melange, and the melange was not known as spice, the item is known as the spice melange, and no derivative thereof.
    Correction noted and appreciated, though, and you can argue with me about this all day long, I'm re-reading the book right now. They do refer to spice and melange separately, even though they are the same thing. Page 43 of the ACE reprint paperback, halfway down the page, said by Paul - "Whoever had stockpiled melange could make a killing." They do this all day long in the movies too.
    Quote:
    - Just a note as to why i posted this... . I am a dune lover to the core, played all the games to completion, own the VHS, DVD, TV series, and all 6 books, so when someone comes along and says something bad about Dune, i feel obligated to speak up.
    I certainly do appreciate this! However, how thoroughly did you read my review? You say that I slammed the game for the minor issue of a keystroke mapping? I gave the game a 9.5 out of 10, labelling it as Editor's Choice. I hardly think that I'm being brutal in that respect.

    If you'd like to respond to my comments though, I welcome you to do so, but please do so in the feedback thread for my Emperor review.
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      #12  
    Old 06-20-01, 03:19 PM
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    Default More interesting info...

    You're not the only one to have noticed this discrepancy. A few searches on the Westwood forums have turned up a thread were a few members were noticing this. It seems that there was definitely an error on Westwood's part. According to the notes there, the Devastator wasn't even created until 10180, which means that 200 years before Dune makes the Devastator's presence an anachronism. Well, at any rate, blame it on Westwood. It's still a damn good game.
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      #13  
    Old 06-22-01, 04:42 AM
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    Red Face Greate game!

    This game rocks! I get sick when I read what the anti-westwood guy says about Westwood games, and RTS games in general. What can you expect? are you a retard or something? Perhaps you should come to our studio in Norway, sit down, Think for a while, and then make something BRAND new that noone has seen before! something so revolutionary that Aliens would actualy find this planet advanced enough to pay a visit...
    It's like with music.. go ahead and ask ANY musician arround... they will all tell you the same, It's impossible to come up with a beat that noone has heared before, or will relate to something else.. because whatever you do, there will always be someone that has made somethign simular before..

    When I first played emperor, it was a bit comfusing, and the 3d graphics didn't impress me THAT much.. but after playing it for a while, I find them VERY good, in fact, I haven't seen this good graphics in any RTS before.

    I know there are several Blizzard fans out there that hates westwood because it's westwood.. If they made smoething brand new, you would probably go ahead and whine about the game being so new and tricky that noone would know what it was all about and that it was stupid... I don't see westwood fans posting crap every time blizzard make a release, Personaly, I don't like starcraft that much.. It's not very well balanced.. but I'm not going to talk dirty about blizzard now. They have pritty much the same consept as westwood..

    Conclution: It's impossible to make something brand new theese days, because whatever you do, it will be simular to SOMETHING that has been made by someone else before..

    And don't ever say that startrek suxx! I'll come over and Kick your ass! ]

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      #14  
    Old 07-14-04, 01:36 PM
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    "Gameplay wise, Emperor is 100% the same as Dune II, its 100% as every other westwood RTS out yet. Different names for units, slightly different functionality for each. But nothing new, nothing inovative, and nothing to warrant a buyer forking out another forty odd bucks for."

    It seems some people are a bit anal. There is a lot of difference between Dune2 and emperor. For example in a few missions in Dune 2 I built a long line of windtraps to take turrets directly to the enemy base.

    T was pretty obvious to me because it's the default key in other westwood games.
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      #15  
    Old 09-16-04, 11:47 AM
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    Default HELP! Emperor

    help me ! every time i click on the play emperor battle for dune icon the little screen comes on then goes off there it is suposed to start but for some reason it never does so please help me !??
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